龔鵬程 ✕ 賈萬馬德｜私企研究與學術界研究的不同

龔鵬程對話海外學者第四期：在後現代情境中，被技術統治的人類社會，只有強化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個人都應實踐的活動。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，並曾主持過「世界漢學研究中心」。我們會陸續推出「龔鵬程對話海外學者」系列文章，請他對話一些學界有意義的靈魂。範圍不局限于漢學，會涉及多種學科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

尤尼斯．賈萬馬德是德黑蘭沙希德．貝赫什提大學理學碩士 — 凝聚態物質和材料物理學碩士。德國德雷斯頓工業大學哲學博士 — 凝聚態物質和材料物理學博士（2018）。擔任量子軟體工程師，並在德國馬克斯．普朗克複雜系統物理研究所工作5年。主要研究量子計算，量子資訊和理論、凝聚物質物理，機器學習（經典和量子）。現在德國萊布尼茨漢諾威大學，擔任博士後研究員 。

龔鵬程：您好！能否簡要介紹一下您的研究領域和當前的研究熱點？

尤尼斯．賈萬馬德：龔教授，您好。我的研究領域是量子資訊和量子計算。該研究領域的首要目標是建造一種新型電腦，稱為量子電腦。量子電腦利用量子力學定律來解決在現有的桌上型電腦上無法解決的問題。這是有可能的，因為量子力學定律是描述微觀原子世界的物理定律，從根本上來說是不同於那些描述我們日常物理經驗的定律的。

量子力學的世界是奇特而迷人的。例如，在量子力學中，原子既是粒子又是波。理論物理學家發現了利用原子的粒子波行為來解決數學問題的演算法。一個著名的例子是將一個整數分解成質數，例如，6可以寫成兩個質數2和3的乘積。將大數分解為質數在計算上是困難的，因此某些公開金鑰密碼系統依賴於它。然而，在量子電腦上，這個問題可以輕易地解決，這對密碼學構成了威脅。

量子計算的另一個優勢在於它具有類比大型物理系統的潛力，比如冷氣體。正如諾貝爾獎得主理查．費曼（Richard Feynman）所說，「自然不是經典的，要類比自然，就需要把它量子力學化。」

目前，我正在開發新的演算法，用於在量子電腦上類比大型系統。在量子計算領域，雖然現在還不存在通用型量子電腦，然而GOOGLE和IBM等大型公司正在對其進行投資，中國、歐洲和美國也在投入大量資源。

這為年輕的研究人員了解量子計算、發現新現象和新技術提供了很好的機會。例如，研究人員正在開發量子互聯網的藍圖，這是一個可以與彼此交換資訊的量子電腦網路。我覺得這個研究領域非常有趣，因為它有很大的未來潛力。

我相信，未來十年將是量子力學的時代，人們將開始在日常生活中接觸到量子相關的技術。

Question: Would you like to briefly describe your research area and current research hotspots in your area？

My research area is in quantum information and quantum computing. The overarching goal of this research area is to build a new type of computer, called a quantum computer. Such a computer exploits the laws of quantum mechanics to solve problems that cannot be solved on the current desktop computers. This is possible because the laws of quantum mechanics, which are the physical laws that describe the microscopic world of atoms, are fundamentally different from those that describe our everyday physical experience.

The world of quantum mechanics is strange and fascinating. For example, in quantum mechanics an atom behaves both as a particle and a wave. Theoretical physicists have discovered algorithms that exploit the particle-wave behaviour of atoms to solve mathematical problems. A famous example is the factorisation of an integer number into its prime numbers, for instance, 6 can be written as the product of the two prime numbers 2 and 3. Factorisation of large numbers into primes is computationally hard and therefore certain public-key cryptosystems rely on it. However, on a quantum computer this problem can be easily solved, and this poses a danger for cryptography. Another advantage of quantum computing is in its potential to simulate large physical systems, such as cold gases. As the Nobel prize winner Richard Feynman put it, 「nature is not classical, and to simulate nature, one needs to make it quantum mechanical」.

Currently, I am working on the development of novel algorithms to simulate large systems on a quantum computer. Although for now there exists no universal quantum computer, large companies such as Google and IBM are investing in quantum computing, and China, Europe and USA are also putting significant resources into it. This provides good opportunities for young researchers to learn about quantum computing and discover new phenomena and technologies down the road. For example, researchers are developing blueprints for a quantum internet, a network of quantum computers that can exchange information with each other. I find this research area very interesting as there is much future potential in it. I believe that the next decade will be the era of quantum mechanics and people will start using quantum-based technology in their daily lives.

龔鵬程：您是如何從伊朗進入德國學術界的？從一位伊朗學者的角度來看，德國和伊朗之間最顯著的工作文化差異是什麼？

尤尼斯．賈萬馬德： 在烏爾米亞大學（Urmia University）完成物理學本科學業後，我考入了德黑蘭大學凝聚態物理學碩士課程。我非常喜歡在德黑蘭大學學習，因為教授們在各自領域都是國際知名的研究人員，並且他們有在伊朗以外工作的經驗。特別是我的論文導師，其對科學嚴謹的態度給了我很大的啟發。

碩士畢業後，我發覺自己很想繼續學習，成為一名更優秀的研究人員。由於伊朗的科學不像其他一些國家那麼發達，所以我決定申請去美國或加拿大讀研究生。最後，我獲得了位於德國德雷斯頓的馬克斯．普朗克研究所（the Max Planck Institute for the Physics of Complex Systems）的博士職位，該研究所在凝聚態物理方面擁有國際知名的團隊。

由於政治因素，我花了一年多的時間才拿到簽證。但在馬克斯．普朗克研究所讓我學到了很多東西，所以搬到德國是一個非常正確的決定。該研究所認為，伊朗與其他國家的學術交流已日漸頻繁。這裡科學相關工作的氛圍更加專業和友好。因為我的一些同事也是外國人，這讓我更容易與他們建立聯結，建立友誼。

伊朗是伊斯蘭社會，社會文化生活與德國截然不同。例如，在德國，我的同事下班後會一起喝啤酒，而在伊朗，我們會一起喝茶或喝咖啡。當我回頭看，我離開伊朗已經10年了。如此說來，從伊朗到德國的旅程是漫長的。

Question: How did your journey from Iran into Germany academia start？ From the perspective of an Iranian scholar, what is the most prominent working cultural differences between Germany and Iran？

After finishing my undergraduate studies in physics at the University in Urmia, I was admitted to the Master program in condensed matter physics at the Tehran University. I very enjoyed studying at the Tehran university a lot as professors are internationally renowned researchers in their area and they have experience working outside Iran. Particularly, I was inspired by the rigorous attitude of my thesis supervisor towards science.

After my Master studies I wanted to continue learning about science and become an excellent researcher. As science in Iran is not as well developed as in some other countries, I decided to apply for graduate studies in the USA or Canada. In the end, I was offered a PhD position at the Max Planck Institute for the Physics of Complex Systems in Dresden, Germany, which has an internationally renowned group in condensed matter physics.

Because of political issues it took me more than one year before the visa was issued. Nevertheless, I think that moving to Germany was the right decision as I have learned a lot at the Max Planck Institute. The institute’s view Iran as there is a larger exchange of ideas with international visitors. The work atmosphere toward science is more professional than that in was friendly as several of my colleagues were also expats and this made it easier for me to relate to them and build friendships.

Since Iran is an Islamic society, the social and cultural life is quite different from that in Germany. For example, in Germany my colleagues would meet up for beers after work, while in Iran we would meet for a tea or a coffee. When I look back, I have left Iran for 10 years, and it has been a long-life journey from Iran to Germany.

龔鵬程：您為什麼選擇在漢諾威大學做研究？您覺得漢諾威的生活怎麼樣？

尤尼斯．賈萬馬德：在私營企業工作了幾年之後，我想回到學術領域學習量子計算，因為我相信這將在未來十年成為一個重要的研究領域。目前，人們在學術界可以比在私營企業了解更多的量子計算技術，因為研究人員在學術界得到了更多的自由。

我對加入漢諾威大學很感興趣，因為它在量子計算方面有很好的聲譽，並且以量子光學而聞名。此外，漢諾威還擁有幾個優秀的研究中心，比如阿爾伯特．愛因斯坦引力波研究所（Albert Einstein Institute for gravitational waves）。由於我在凝聚態物理、機器學習和量子計算方面有豐富經驗，我被他們選中並得到了一個寶貴的職位，我也很高興能在這個研究小組工作。在未來的三年裡，我將專注於開發用於量子電腦上類比量子系統的演算法。

我最近才搬到漢諾威，所以還有很多東西要探索。漢諾威比我之前居住的東德更加國際化。城市裡有很多綠地，還有一個巨大的森林叫Eilenriede。Eilenriede是歐洲最大的城市森林，有著縱橫交錯的小徑、湖泊和森林小旅館，是周末閒逛的好去處。

Question: Why did you choose to do research at University of Hannover？ How do you feel about life in Hannover？

After working for a few years in the private sector, I wanted to return to the academic sector to learn about quantum computing as I believe that this will become an important research area in the coming decade. Currently in the academic sector one can learn more about quantum computing than in the private sector as researchers are given more freedom in academia.

I was interested in joining the University of Hannover as it has a good reputation group in quantum computing, and it is famous for quantum optics. Also, Hanover hosts several excellent research centres, such as the Albert Einstein Institute for gravitational waves. Because of my diverse experience in condensed matter physics, machine learning, and quantum computing, I was selected for the position they needed, and I am thrilled to have started working in this research group. In the next three years I will be developing algorithms to simulate quantum systems on a quantum computer.

I only moved recently to Hanover and still have much to explore. Hanover is more international than the east of Germany where I was living before. There is a lot of green space in the city, and it has an enormous forest called the Eilenriede. The Eilenriede is the largest urban forest in Europe and a wonderful place to hang out on the weekend with its web of footpaths, lakes, and forest inns.

龔鵬程：您以前來過中國嗎？感覺怎麼樣？

尤尼斯．賈萬馬德：是的，我在2015年通過一個學生交換項目訪問過中國。我的博士導師當時是馬克斯．普朗克研究所的組長，他被浙江大學聘為教授。

如今，由於中國科學技術的快速發展，在中國的大學裡有很多工作機會。中國大學也正再成為吸引歐洲研究人員的目的地。中國正在大力投資量子計算研究，因此它可能成為世界上量子計算研究的主要參與者之一。因此，當我的博士導師無限期地搬到杭州時，我因此抓住機會在浙江大學學習和研究了一段時間。

浙江大學給我的第一印象是大學校園裡輕鬆的氛圍。浙大有美麗的綠地和一條水道。並且這所大學一直是開放的，工作時間非常靈活，對研究人員來說十分便利。學生熱情、禮貌、樂於助人。我發現中國學生樂於討論，渴望學習，有很強的合作精神。當時，我在遇到了好幾個國際訪問學者並參與了一些持續進行的學術會議，那是一種充滿活力的研究氛圍。

我們和導師一起參觀了靈隱寺和淨慈寺。我對這些寺廟的規模和他們的雕像印象深刻。這讓我對杭州的歷史感到好奇，我了解到它是吳越王國統治下的中國首都。城裡的食物很好，尤其是湯很好吃。我也喜歡餐廳在飯前提供熱水的習慣。有一天我想再次去中國旅行，抓住機會去看看更多的城市，包括北京和上海。

Question: Have you visited China before？ How was it like？

Yes, I visited China in 2015 through a student exchange program. My PhD supervisor, who was at the time a group leader at the Max Planck institute for the physics of Complex systems, was offered a professor position at Zheijang University in Hangzhou. Nowadays, there are many job opportunities at Chinese universities and because of the fast development of science and technology in China, Chinese universities are becoming attractive destinations for European researchers. China is investing in quantum computing and therefore it may become one of the leading players in the world in quantum computing research. Thus, when my PhD supervisor moved indefinitely to Hangzhou I took the opportunity to study and do research at Zheijang University.

My first impression of Zheijang University was that the relaxing atmosphere on the university campus. It has beautiful green areas and a water channel. The university is always open which makes it more accessible for researchers with flexible working hours. Students were welcoming, polite, and helpful. I found that Chinese students were open to discuss, eager to learn, and there was a strong spirit of collaboration. At the time, there were several international visitors and some ongoing conferences, which created a vibrant research atmosphere.

Together with my supervisor we visited the Lingyin and Jingci temples. I was impressed by the sheer size of the temples and their statues. It made me curious about the history of Hangzhou and I learned that it was the capital of China under the Wuyue kingdom. The food in the city was very good, in particular, the soups were delicious. I also liked the habit of restaurants to offer hot water before a meal. One day I would like to travel to China again and take the opportunity to see more cities including Beijing and Shanghai.

龔鵬程：在您看來，私營企業的研究與學術界的研究相比如何？

尤尼斯．賈萬馬德：我可以很好地理解這個問題，因為作為一名機器學習和量子軟體工程師，我在學術部門和私企都工作過。以我的經驗，學術研究人員主要是尋找概念的證明，一般來說，擁有一個最終產品或實際結果並不重要。另一方面，在行業中的財務增長是公司最重要的關注點。企業必須吸引想要購買其產品或服務的客戶，因此，企業中的研究往往集中在產品開發和管理客戶的期望上。

在該行業中從事商業相關的工作有一個優勢，那就是你可以接觸到一些無法在學術環境中學習到的技術能力。此外，私營公司提供更高的薪水以及更有利的合同。從這個意義上說，私營企業為年輕的研究者提供了更多的穩定性。

從另一個角度看，當你在學術領域工作時，你則擁有更多的自由，你可以花更多的時間在作為研究人員的個人能力發展上。例如，在學術界，出於個人利益可以進行兼職，但在企業中是不可能的。我認為研究自由對於仍然在發展獨立思考的年輕研究人員很重要，這也是我在私營企業工作了幾年之後回到學術部門的原因之一。在大學裡工作的另一個好處是，你可以去參加學術會議，會見有影響力的研究人員，且可以與他們建立新的合作關係。

總的來說，我感覺產業界和學術界之間的差距正在縮小，科學研究轉化為實用技術的速度正在加快。這一變化為我們帶來了一個激動人心的科技時代。

Question: In your opinion, how does research in the private sector compares with research in academia？

I can relate well to this question as I have worked both in the academic sector and in the private sector as a machine learning and quantum software engineer. In my experience, academic researchers mostly search for a proof of concept, and it is, in general, not that important to have a final product or practical outcome. On the other hand, in the industry the financial growth of the company is the most important aspect. A company must attract customers that want to buy their products or services, and for this reason research in the private sector is often focused on product development and managing the expectations of customers.

An advantage of working in the industry is that one gets exposed to technical skills that one would not learn in an academic environment. Also, private companies offer higher salaries and more favorable contracts. In this sense the private sector provides more stability for young researchers.

On the other hand, when working in the academic sector you have more freedom, and you can spend more time on your personal development as a researcher. For example, in academia, it is acceptable to have side projects out of personal interest, which is not possible in the private sector. I think research freedom is important for young researchers that still are developing their independent thinking, and this is one of the reasons why I returned to the academic sector after working for several years in private companies. Another advantage of working at universities is that you can travel to conferences, meet influential researchers, and establish new collaborations.

Overall, my impression is that the gap between industry and academia is reducing and the speed at which scientific discoveries are converted into technology is increasing. This creates an exciting era for technology.

尤尼斯．賈萬馬德：我要感謝龔教授盛情邀請我參加這次對話。我認為提問都非常有趣，這是一個很好的機會讓公眾了解當前科學家的一些學術想法和方向。眾所周知，龔教授是中國文化和漢語方面的專家。我想問龔教授兩個問題：

第一個問題是關於中國的「無」和「氣」的概念。它們確切的意思是什麼？這兩個概念之間有什麼聯繫？我覺得這很有趣。這是一種用來理解世界的不同方法。

第二個問題是關於中國的實力和文化在世界上的地位。未來30年，中國文化將對世界產生怎樣的影響？

龔鵬程：問得好，但都是中國聖人孔子所說的「大哉問」，不容易簡單回答。我只能說：Wu是「無」，Qi是「氣」，都是中國哲學或文化中極為重要的觀念。近年，卡普拉（Fritjof Capra）《物理學之道：近代物理學與東方神秘主義》（ The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism）等科學哲學家非常重視這些觀念，認為可以打破西方古典形而上學世界觀，以及由它所演變出的文藝復興、啟蒙運動的理性價值觀。這也是您說它們「是一種用來理解世界的不同方法」的緣故。

但老、莊、佛教中有關氣、現在（PRESENCE）、不在（ABSENCE）、有（THINGNESS）、無、變、非永恆、非中心、無中生有等觀念，本來在中國就眾說紛紜，現今科學哲學家的選用和闡釋也各各不同，所以還有待細細討論。

不過，謝謝您的提醒，這確實是可以作為東方與西方、傳統與現在溝通的話題。我來籌備一個研討會，專門討論Wu與Qi吧！

未來，中國在世界上的地位，同樣難以預測。因為「人能弘道，非道弘人」，路有多長，得看人能走到哪裡。

Question: I would like to thank Professor Gong who kindly invited me to this dialogue. I found the questions interesting, and I think this was a good opportunity to make the general public aware of the current interests of scientists. It is known that Professor Gong is a worldwide leading expert in Chinese culture and Chinese philosophy. I would like to ask Professor Gong two questions.

- The first question is about the Chinese concepts of Wu and Qi. What is the precise meaning of these two concepts and how are they related to each other？ I find this fascinating. It is a different approach to understand the world.

- The second question is about the extent of Chinese power and culture in the world. What will be the influence of Chinese culture on the world in the next 30 years？

Well, good questions. These are so-called 「great questions」 by the Chinese sage Confucius, which are not easy to answer simply. I would say that 「Wu」 means “Emptiness” and 「Qi」 is a circulating life force, both of which are extremely important concepts in Chinese philosophy. In recent years, philosophers such as Fritjof Capra wrote The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism and showed an great interests in these concepts, believing that they can break the western classical metaphysical world view, as well as the rational values of Renaissance and Enlightenment that evolved from it. That’s why you said they are “a different approach to understand the world」.

There are concepts such as Qi, Presence, Absence, Thingness, Emptiness, Changeability, Non-permanence, Non-centrality, Out-of-thingness from the interpretation of Lao Tsu, Zhuang Zi and Buddhism. These concepts have been widely discussed in China, and the selection and interpretation of modern philosophers of science are also different, so some further discussions are needed.

However, thank you for reminding me that this is indeed a topic of communication between East and West, tradition and present. I will try to organize a seminar to discuss Wu and Qi in the future.

Meanwhile, the perspective of China in the world in the future is equally difficult to predict. As the saying goes, “Man can promote the road, not the road promote man.” The length of the road depends on where a man can go.