龔鵬程 ✕ 羅伯特．弗魯｜多元化會不會造成文化混亂？

龔鵬程對話海外學者第五期：在後現代情境中，被技術統治的人類社會，只有強化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個人都應實踐的活動。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，並曾主持過「世界漢學研究中心」。我們會陸續推出「龔鵬程對話海外學者」系列文章，請他對話一些學界有意義的靈魂。範圍不局限于漢學，會涉及多種學科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

羅伯特．弗魯博士（Dr. Robert Frew）畢業于倫敦大學瑪麗皇后學院（Queen Mary University of London），主修物理學，後又在倫敦城市大學（City, University of London）取得藝術政策與管理學的博士學位。他主要研究創意產業中的盈利與非盈利機構，聚焦文化藝術機構中的管理與領導力問題，並提出了英國主要藝術資助的新型方案。他是英國皇家特許管理會計師公會會士（Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants），也是特許全球管理會計師（Chartered Global Management Accountant）。作為一名財務管理專家，他是許多組織的管理顧問，並在英國、南部非洲和土耳其幫助許多企業起死回生。他的國際職業生涯跨越了諸多領域，包括航空、廣播、休閒、媒體、黃金開採、石油勘探和國際貿易。他也是一名政治活動家，同時是英國保守黨外交和聯邦委員會的成員（Member of the Conservative Foreign and Commonwealth Council）。

龔鵬程：您好！非常高興能訪問到您。您讀的藝術政策與管理學，曾經是我當年辦學的一個理想。因為二十世紀九十年代整個中國都還沒有這種專業，我跟政府溝通許久，才勉強獲准開辦美學與藝術管理研究所。但美學研究與藝術管理其實各有重點，不應這樣生硬拼和。這就顯示了大家對藝術政策與管理學的陌生，以及這個學科發展的不易。您能不能借此機會，向我們簡要介紹一下英國藝術政策與管理學的情況？

羅伯特．弗魯：龔教授，您好。在英國，對藝術政策與管理而言，最重要的是數字、文化、媒體和體育部（DCMS）。

DCMS是英國政府的一個部門。英國的藝術經費有多種來源，但很大一部分來自DCMS。它通過提供補助金或政府補貼的方式為藝術制定預算，這些資金由四個國家藝術委員會管理：英格蘭藝術委員會、北愛爾蘭藝術委員會、創意蘇格蘭和威爾士藝術委員會。這四個藝術委員會還從國家彩票中獲得資金，國家彩票是一個國家特許經營的彩票。藝術委員會在發放資金方面的運作方式略有不同，但基本上它們指導各自國家的整體藝術政策和方向。總的來說，DCMS政府機構也會通過這些藝術委員會影響政策的方向。

因此，整體政策是由政府通過DCMS制定的，同時向藝術委員會提供整體預算，而藝術委員會則進一步對組織、公司和個人獲得的補貼或補助金額實施自己的政策。大部分資金被發放給英國的主要表演藝術公司，如主要的歌劇、管弦樂隊、劇院和舞蹈公司。而中小型公司和個人則可獲得數千或更少的資助。

在英國，這些補貼，尤其是給大型表演藝術公司的補貼，完全不足以支撐公司的運營。因此，藝術管理部門需要付出很多努力來獲得額外的資金，特別是通過贊助、捐贈和遺贈。

這與法國或德國的情況截然不同。在那裡，政府對藝術的補貼要高得多，並能滿足藝術機構的大部分運營成本。

在英國，藝術管理更像是「藝術行政」，重點是為藝術組織獲得足夠的資金以維持其償付能力。他們還需要有足夠的資金來開展額外的非核心活動，比如藝術委員會要求的與教育和多元化問題有關的活動，這是他們資金的要求，而這些活動並沒有得到他們的全部資助。這種情況確實造成了節目製作的問題。

Central to arts policy and management in the UK, is the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS). The DCMS is a department of the UK Government. The arts in the UK are funded from a variety of sources, but a significant amount comes from the DCMS. It sets the budget for the arts by providing funds by way of grant-in-aid or government subsidies, which are administered by four national arts councils: Arts Council England, Arts Council of Northern Ireland, Creative Scotland and Arts Council Wales. The four arts councils also receive money from the National Lottery, a state-franchised lottery. The arts councils operate slightly differently in awarding funds, but essentially they direct the overall arts policy and direction of their respective countries. Overall the DCMS government body will also influence the direction of policy through these arts councils.

So, overall policy is set by government through the DCMS along the overall budget to arts councils, who further impose their own policies on the amounts of subsidy or grant-in-aid that organisations, companies and individuals receive. The majority of the funding is awarded to UK major performing arts companies, such as the major opera, orchestras, theatres and dance companies. Whilst thousands or smaller grants are available to small, medium sized companies and individuals. In the UK these subsidies, especially those given to major performing arts companies, are totally inadequate to run the company. As a consequence, much effort is required by the arts management to secure additional funds especially through sponsorship, giving and bequests.

This is very different situation to that that exists in France or Germany, where government subsidies to the arts are significantly higher and meet most of the costs of running arts organisations.

Arts management in the UK, is more like ‘arts administration’, in that the emphasis is in obtaining sufficient funds for arts organisations to stay solvent. They also need to have sufficient money to pursue additional non-core activities, such as activities related to education and diversity issues as required by the arts councils, as a requirement for their funds and which are not fully funded by them. This situation does create programming issues.

龔鵬程：英國的文化創意產業特別發達，您覺得它的特點和發展動力是什麼？

羅伯特．弗魯：雖然創意產業包括營利性和非營利性藝術，但在這個問題的背景下，我覺得我們可以認為創意產業更多是與營利相關聯的。數位世界和技術帶來了創新、新的生產和工作方式。這推動軟體/遊戲、廣播和電影製作公司產出新的大量創意，讓新的全球市場機會和盈利機會得以增多。

然而，從文化的角度來看，我認為在非營利性藝術公司中存在著文化漂移，它們得到的資金不足。

如果要說的話，那就是英國正處於文化衰退期。歷屆英國政府所犯的最大錯誤是不支援民族文化。民族文化被淘汰了，多元文化被納入其中 — — 英國占主導地位的主流文化被擱置，藝術機構的資金不足。

Whilst he creative industries include the profit and the not-for-profit arts, in the context of this question, I think we can consider the creative industries as more related to being profit-based. The digital world and technology has brought innovation, new ways of production and working. This has driven a new substantial creative output from software/games, broadcasting and film production companies, providing the development of new global market opportunities and profit making opportunities. However, from a cultural standpoint, I believe there is a cultural drift amongst the not-for-profit arts companies, which receive inadequate funding. If anything, the UK is in cultural decline. The big mistake that successive UK Governments have made is in not supporting the national culture. National culture is out, multiculturalism is in — UK predominant and mainstream culture has been sidelined and arts organisations underfunded.

龔鵬程：創意產業中的盈利與非盈利機構，在藝術政策方面有何不同需求？其管理學最大的歧異是什麼？

羅伯特．弗魯：各個部門或流派之間，並沒有太多的直接對比。但拿一個例子來說，通過比較倫敦西區的商業劇院和其他主要的藝術資助劇院以及歌劇公司，我們可以得出一些區別。

最大的區別在於管理風格：西區劇院的管理層需要拿出非常賺錢的戲劇作品，以使製作公司/製作人能夠支付所有費用，償還投資者並獲得利潤。而與之相反的是，藝術經理人可能更專注于保持傳統藝術形式的活力。這些經理人很難製作新的藝術作品，以及大受歡迎的知名作品，同時還要滿足藝術委員會的非核心標準，並維持組織的財務狀況。非營利性或政府資助的藝術部門公司的運作基本上取決於政府的補貼，這對節目製作有直接影響。

在盈利和非盈利組織中，優秀的經理人和領導者，基本上都有類似的基本技能，但使命和目標會有所不同，組織的優先事項也會有所不同。

There are not so many direct comparisons one can make between the sectors or genres. But by way of an example, it is possible to draw some differences by comparing London’s West End commercial theatre, with other major arts funded theatres and perhaps opera companies.

The big difference is in management style: West End theatre management need to deliver successful theatre production to enable the production company/producers to cover all costs and repay investors and make a profit. At the other end of the scale, arts managers are probably more focussed on keeping alive the legacy art form. The managers have difficulty producing new artistic works, along with hugely popular well-known productions, whilst meeting arts council non-core criteria and keeping the organisation afloat financially. The not-for-profit or government funded arts sector companies operate essentially up to the extent of their government subsidy, which has a direct effect on programming.

Good managers and leaders, in both profit and not-for-profit organisations, will have essentially similar basic skills, but mission and objectives will be different as will be organisational priorities.

龔鵬程：您的國際職業生涯跨越了諸多國家，也跨越了諸多領域，能不能分享一些經驗、感悟，或故事？

羅伯特．弗魯：謝謝！我有很多想說，不過我認為重要的問題是圍繞著「文化」這個詞。什麼是文化，多元文化的問題，它是誰的文化？我自己對這個問題的簡單看法是「文化」可以被認為是一顆鑽石：這顆鑽石的晶格是由語言、法律、歷史和傳統形成的。文化鑽石定義了國家文化和身份，而在鑽石的晶格或幾何形狀中，其他文化和亞文化也可以存在。

這些其他文化或多種文化只能在主文化的框架記憶體在。如果沒有一個主要的文化晶格，所有的文化都會融合成一個混合體，有相互競爭的價值觀，甚至沒有價值觀，這可能會破壞社會，造成文化混亂。

今天，在西方，特別是在英國，我們看到了這樣一種情況，在很多人看來，政府似乎在壓制主流文化和價值觀，並提倡多元文化和新的「喚醒議程」。這鼓勵了文化上的異議和文化上的不團結，並允許政府採取「分而治之」的方式。毫無疑問，西方社會正變得越來越不民主，受到更多的政府控制，同時社會也變得更加支離破碎。

Thank you! I have so much to say, however, I think that important questions surround the word ‘Culture’, what is culture, issues of multiculturalism, whose culture is it? My own brief views on this are, that ‘Culture’ can be considered a diamond: a diamond whose lattice is formed by virtue of language, laws, history and traditions. The cultural diamond defines national culture and identity, and that within the lattice or geometry of the diamond, other cultures and sub cultures can exist. These other or multi cultures can only exist within the framework of the main culture. Without a main cultural lattice, all cultures merge into a melange, with competing values or even no values that can break down society and create cultural disorder. Today, generally in the West and specifically in the UK, we are witnessing a situation, where it seems to many people that Government suppresses predominant culture and values, and promotes multiculturalism and the new ‘Woke agenda’. This encourages cultural dissent and cultural disunity, and allows for a ‘divide and rule’ style of government. There is no doubt that Western society is becoming less democrat, subject to more government control whilst society becomes more fragmented.

龔鵬程：您也是一位傑出的政治人物，您從政，最主要的關注點或主張是什麼？

羅伯特．弗魯：我在互聯網上提出了一系列主題的政治問題。我最近在網上發表了一篇題為「BBC還是BBC PLC？：政府政策需要澄清」的文章，試圖探討政府將BBC私有化的意圖。

我現在關注的主要問題是改寫英國歷史和文化史的趨勢，無論它是好是壞，都是以犧牲英國主流文化為代價：即英格蘭、蘇格蘭、威爾士和北愛爾蘭的主流文化。

I raise political issues on a range of subjects on the Internet. My latest on-line article entitled ‘ BBC or BBC PLC ?: Government Policy Needs to be Clarified’ sought to explore the Government’s intention to privatise the BBC. The main concerns I have right now, is the trend to rewrite some of Britain history, cultural past, whether it was good or bad, at the expense of the predominant mainstream cultures of the UK: that is of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.