白宮記者會：達賴訪問白宮（2007.10.16）　■雲程譯

雲程說明：

15日起，是中國共產黨第17次全國代表大會開會，就在這時候美國國會頒獎達賴喇嘛，稍早則是由布希夫人羅拉指明緬甸軍政府讓一條路給民主，之前還有商品安全的問題。難怪在記者會中記者會有問不完的問題。

若有誤譯之處，請多包涵。

白宮記者會：達賴訪問白宮

問：為何總統明天要參加這儀式？是否因為達賴喇嘛而參加國會獎章典禮，或者他想向中國做個聲明？

Perino女士：布希總統曾經參加過國會金質榮譽獎章（the Congressional Gold Medal of Honor）典禮。我所記得最近的一次是Tuskegee Airmen事件。我想是今年的稍早吧。而且，在雪梨APEC時他也向胡錦濤主席說過他將參加這項典禮。他很榮幸能參加。他深信達賴喇嘛是個堅強的精神領袖，而他也將與達賴在今天有私人會面，他也將參加明天的金質獎章典禮。同時，如我所說，他告訴胡主席他將且很榮幸在明天參加這典禮。

問：總統會否擔心反彈？中國外交部稱此為粗暴的干預中國內政。

P：我們瞭解中國對此有非常強烈的感受，而這也就是總統在兩個月前與胡主席提到他將參加此一典禮的原因。總統希望胡主席早一點知道此事。

總統參加此一典禮，這是我們美國傳統中很特別的一項。美國與布希當局在各方面非常努力維持與中國的關係，從貿易到不同項目的合作，如北韓的六方會談。我們感覺我們與他們有深厚的關係，而此關係也會維持。

問：所以假使與中國有堅強的戰略關係，我會認為總統會以建設性的態度仔細聽著對其行為表達強烈保留的意見。土耳其與中國的不同的是，土耳其說「我們不希望美國做某件事」（we don't want the United States to do something），而中國說「我們不希望這個當局或總統做某件事」（we don't want the government or the President to do something），這兩者有何不同？

P：這兩件事情是不同的。首先也是最重要的，總統與達賴喇嘛見過許多次面，這次是兩人第四次的私人會面。總統如果時間許可，也會參加過金質獎章頒獎典禮。我想他幾乎參加過每一次的典禮，若他沒有參加，是因為他在外出差。

在亞美尼亞決議案中，他每年在咨文中都表達了對1915年亞美尼亞悲劇的哀悼。而總統清楚表示土耳其在目前在我國軍隊的補給上，扮演一個非常重要的角色。很多我國軍隊的一切補給是經由土耳其運輸，或再運送到伊拉克與阿富汗，所以在此處有國家安全的戰略理由。

在中國與在達賴喇嘛上，總統很公開的向胡主席清楚表示他將與達賴會面。總統也不是第一次見達賴。

問：為何沒有照片？

P：明天就會有總統與達賴喇嘛的相片。

問：為何不是今天？

P：照片是兩人一起在國會山莊。

問：但如果不是要緊的事，且總統引以為傲…

P：我們瞭解中國對於總統明天將從事的行為有強烈且負面的反應。但總統清楚表達他將一如以往參加典禮。我們決定今天不發佈照片，但不是說你們拿不到總統與達賴喇嘛的照片，你們明天會見到兩人在國會山莊的照片。

問：不發佈照片是有意的決定，即使你們…

P：我們對於是否發佈照片都是有意的決定。

問：但是，這幾乎像是個敷衍，知道中國是…

P：我不知道中國是否這樣感覺。我想我認為他們根本都不想讓這典禮舉行。所以我…，但是我想，事情仍舊將繼續進行。總統明天會到場。他會發表簡短的致詞，而他會在當場讓大家照相。

問：是否不發佈照片是對中國所做姿態，以限制曝光…

P：我不知道他們是否這樣想。我們作我們的決定。他們並未要求我們不要發佈照片。

問：這個決定的基礎是什麼？這顯然是今天備受矚目的故事。

P：美國無意攪亂一池春水，而讓擁有多種關係與議題的中國感覺我們將竹籤插入他們的眼窩。我是說，一個（我們與中國）在多種議題上擁有良好的關係。如果這是我們可做的事。但我不相信這樣會讓中國平息關切。我先讓ANN問一下，再回來。

問：多年前，達賴喇嘛提議他所說的「中道」（middle way），不呼籲西藏從中國獨立，而是一種他所說的自治，讓這個地區能擁有其領袖。美國是否接受達賴喇嘛對於西藏政府的願景？

P：他尋求西藏人民可以擁有宗教信仰的自由。美國支持他這一位精神領袖。他也以精神領袖為榮。但我們並不尋求當地的獨立。

問：但是他自治的理念，這是他的字眼，是否為美國與支持的？

P：我不知道他所用語言裡的字眼，但我們不支持從中國分離的國家（a separate country from China）。

問：Dana，你能否告訴我們他們將進行的會談，總統與達賴喇嘛？

P：這是個私人會面，總統曾有過與許多精神領袖有過私人會面，比方和教宗。我們無法告訴你他們心裡面在想什麼。很顯然的，總統將會與他誠摯討論。但當他進行私人會面時，我總不能追問到底吧。若有消息可發佈，我就會讓你們知道。

問：我們預判一下議題，即使…

P：免談！

問：會面將在哪裡舉行？

P：在起居區（the Residence）。

問：在起居區的哪個地方？我們知道嗎？

P：我不知道。

問：你聽過中國外交部發表違反國際關係且傷害中國感情等說法。達賴喇嘛特別全權公使說此次會面傳達一個訊息：人們並未忘記西藏，且達賴喇嘛絕不示軟（is not going to go away），根據他的說法，這是個對中國強有力的訊息。總統相信此次會面真傳達此種訊息給中國嗎？

P：我認為總統相信人們將會以多種方式看待此次會面，就是這樣。總統曾經見過達賴喇嘛許多次。他是個精神領袖。總統想和他見面。總統深信全世界的人們都應該擁有宗教信仰的自由。這就是為何總統希望與他會面。他深信達賴喇嘛應尊為一位精神領袖。

你提到外交部。總統就在這幾個星期裡面與中國外長見過面，就在白宮這裡。我們相信明天總統參加典禮一切都會平順無事，而我們將與中國持續與維持良好關係。

問：我可否繼續問下去，你可以評論許多今天記者會的許多提問…

P：喔，今晚真是熱鬧啊！

問：而這是今天的重點。所以，為什麼今天不發佈照片？似乎只在今天發生…

P：我瞭解，如果可以的話我會緩一緩，但我相信今天不會有照片公布。明天才有。

問：Dana，你剛剛講到你不讓照片公布出來，是不攪亂一池春水。那明天的典禮呢？總統是否會親自將獎章頒發給達賴喇嘛？他是否會特別縮短致詞？這動作的其他意涵…

P：我想他的致詞會一如往常，我相信。總是會有個致詞，那是個冗長的典禮嘛。我不知道程序中誰將頒發這獎章。這是國會的金質獎章，所以我不知道總統會扮演何種角色。

問：不過，白宮是否思考過這些舉動的象徵意義…

P：我們當然知道這個。這本來就在我們全方位的思考中。我們理解中國表達過的關切。但我們我們將在明天繼續這個典禮。我們不會改變它。但我們也不會在今天發佈照片。但反正你們所有人都知道這個會面，你們明天都會有總統與達賴喇嘛的照片。

問：你是否會在今天之前讓我們知道明天的程序，以及總統是否將頒發這獎章？

P：當然。

問：以及，明天他可能致詞的內容？

P：我想，他會推崇達賴喇嘛是個偉大的精神領袖。但願我可以提供更多消息，這些講詞現在還在撰寫修改中，除非他們確定了、我在辦公室且來了這裡公布，否則一切都尚未定稿。讓我回到四月。

問：Dana，過去幾個月中，白宮說過和中國的關係很有趣，特別是在貿易課題之後。現在你說的是良好關係。你能否解釋一下為何有些人認為在這些火上加油的美中關係後，會與中國有良好關係？

P：我只是認為我們兩國關係是在許多議題上有合作，包括能源議題。兩星期之前，總統在這裡款待主要經濟體會議，中國也在場。當時我們討論到如何消減溫室氣體排放來以減緩全球暖化。

總統告訴胡主席，他期待區參加明年的奧運會。我們也告訴中國我們對於緬甸的關切，這就是中國大使來這裡的原因。我們也談到進口商品安全委員會（the Product Import Safety Commission）主席Leavitt正在調查的議題。我們視中國為大的貿易伙伴，我們來來去去有著許多不同的議題要與他們合作。Paulson已經向財政部提出主動經濟戰略（the Economic Strategic Initiative）。

所以說，這是個擁有許多不同面向的複雜關係。正如我所提過的，我們在如北韓六方會談議題上與中國合作中。這些對我們以及整個區域都很重要，來讓北韓成為非核化的半島。

問：但是，所謂的「情結」（complex）也等於良好關係？

P：我想你可以既有情結也有良好關係，就像我們一樣。Helen！

問：無關達賴，但是有人想問有關於…

P：好，我等一下就回來解答。Helen！

問：謝謝，Dana。中國這樣強烈抗議明天的國會金質榮譽獎章典禮，是不是也是一種干涉我國內政？

P：我想假如人們想要表達其觀點，總統歡迎所有人應該擁有表達觀點的自由。我想我們不應該試圖遮掩延緩，絕不可以這樣。Goyal！

問：Dana，謝謝你。

P：有關達賴喇嘛的提問嗎？

問：對的。有關這個，達賴喇嘛與其他相關議題，已經持續一段長時間，西藏人民每年等待與質問布希總統，每當達賴與布希在白宮會面，他們見到希望之光。現在，超過25萬在印度的西藏人民，正再次問著布希總統，他是否支持西藏人民有如同世界其他地方人民的獨立或自由。

P：就如我所說，總統…

問：這是美國給予平民最高的獎章，他們非常高興且感謝布希總統。但同時，他們也會質問更多。

P：這個嘛，總統期待與他會面，明天他會有簡短的致詞，你們也可能登載到報紙上去。

Q Why has the President chosen to attend this event tomorrow? Is it because he attends all of the -- with the Dalai Lama -- all of these congressional award ceremonies, or is he trying to make a statement to China?

MS. PERINO: President Bush has attended the Congressional Gold Medal of Honor ceremonies. The most recent one that I can remember was the Tuskegee Airmen event that he attended. I think that was earlier this year. And he told President Hu when we were at APEC in Sydney that he would be attending this one, as well. And he is going to be proud to do so. He believes that the Dalai Lama is a strong spiritual leader, and he will have a private meeting with him today, and then he'll attend tomorrow's Gold Medal ceremony. And, as I told you, he told President Hu that he would and he'll be proud to do so tomorrow.

Q Is he concerned about the repercussions? The Chinese Foreign Minister called this a violent intrusion into Chinese domestic politics.

MS. PERINO: We understand that the Chinese have very strong feelings about this, and that's one of the reasons that the President brought up with President Hu almost two months ago that he would be actually -- that he would be attending this event. The President wanted President Hu to know about this early on.

The President attends that ceremony; it's a special one that we have in American traditions. The United States and the Bush administration has worked hard to have very strong relations with China on a variety of issues -- from trade and to cooperation on many different issues, such as the six-party talks with North Korea. We feel we have a very strong relationship with them, and that will be maintained.

Q So if there's a strong strategic relationship with China, I would think that the President would listen to strongly expressed reservations about something the President was doing, with a certain amount of appreciation for that. What's the difference between Turkey saying, we don't want the United States to do something, and China saying, we don't want the government or the President to do something? What's the difference?

MS. PERINO: Well, first, I think those two things are different. First and foremost, the President has met with the Dalai Lama multiple times, and this will be his fourth private meeting with the Dalai Lama. The President also attends the Congressional Gold Medal ceremony whenever he possibly can. I think he's attended almost of all them, and if he hasn't, that has been because of travel that he didn't make it.

On the Armenian resolution, what the President has done is he has expressed the Americans' grief about what happened in 1915 through a presidential message every year. And the President has made it clear that Turkey currently is playing a very important, vital role in making sure that our troops have the supplies that they need. A lot of our troops -- all the supplies are going through Turkey either through the airspace or -- and both to Iraq and Afghanistan, so there's a strategic national security reason there.

On China and on the Dalai Lama, the President has made clear early on with President Hu -- we've been very open about -- that the President was going to be meeting with him. It's not that the President hadn't met him before.

Q Why not release the picture?

MS. PERINO: There's going to be a picture of the President and the Dalai Lama that you'll have tomorrow.

Q What about today?

MS. PERINO: They'll be standing together in the Capitol.

Q But if it's not that big a deal, and the President's proud to --

MS. PERINO: We understand that there are very strong feelings that the Chinese have, and that they've reacted negatively to the fact the President will be going to this event tomorrow. But the President was clear that he would attend the event, as he had before. And we made a decision not to release a photograph today, but you are -- it's not that you're not going to get a picture of the President and the Dalai Lama, because you'll see them together tomorrow at the Capitol.

Q Was it a conscious decision not the release a photo, even though you --

MS. PERINO: We always make a decision whether or not to release a photo.

Q But it almost appears like a splitting the difference, that understanding that China is --

MS. PERINO: Well, I don't know if the Chinese would feel that way. I think that they don't want the event to happen at all. So I -- but I think -- it is going to go forward. The President will be there tomorrow. He'll make brief remarks and he'll have his picture taken there, too.

Q Is it a gesture to the Chinese to not release a photo, to limit the exposure --

MS. PERINO: I don't know if they would take it that way. It was a decision we made on our own. They did not ask us not to release a photo.

Q And what is the basis of that decision, then? It's certainly a story today.

MS. PERINO: The United States -- we in no way want to stir the pot and make China feel that we are poking a stick in their eye, to a country that we have a lot of relationships with on a variety of -- I mean, a good relationship with on a variety of issues. And if this is -- this might be one thing that we can do. But I don't have -- I don't believe that that's going to assuage the concerns of the Chinese.

Sure, I'll go to Ann, and I'll come back.

Q Several y ears ago the Dalai Lama proposed what he calls the "middle way," not independence for Tibet, but a kind of, what he calls, autonomy, where that area could have its own leaders. Does the United States embrace the Dalai Lama's vision of what a government for Tibet should be?

MS. PERINO: As I understand it, the Dalai Lama wants not for -- he's not calling for independence from China. He's asking for the people there to have ability to -- the freedom to practice their religion. And the United States supports him as a great spiritual leader. He should be honored as a spiritual leader. But we are not asking for independence from the country.

Q But his idea of autonomy -- and that's the word he uses -- is what the United States would also embrace?

MS. PERINO: I don't know his specific language that he uses, but we do not support a separate country from China.

Q Dana, what can you tell us about what they're going to talk about, the President and the Dalai Lama?

MS. PERINO: Well, those are private meetings, and the President has private meetings with spiritual leaders such as the Pope. We don't always tell you what's on his mind. The President, obviously, will have a good discussion with him. But when he has a private meeting, I don't get into the habit of asking him specifically what's he's going to bring up with somebody. If there's more to say later, I could let you know.

Q -- preview of the topics, even --

MS. PERINO: No.

Q Do you know where it will be?

MS. PERINO: In the Residence.

Q Where in the Residence, do we know?

MS. PERINO: I don't know.

Q You heard what the Chinese Foreign Minister said about violating international relations and wounded feelings with China. The Dalai Lama's Special Envoy says that this meeting sends a message that people have not forgotten about Tibet, and that it is also a message -- a powerful message, according to him, to China, that the Dalai Lama is not going to go away. Does the President believe that this meeting sends that sort of message to China?

MS. PERINO: I think that what the President would believe is that people are going to look at this meeting in several different ways, and it's almost taking on a life of its own. The President has met with the Dalai Lama before. He is a great spiritual leader. The President wants to meet with him. The President believes that people all over the world should be able to express their religion and practice their religion in freedom. And that's why the President wants to meet with him. He believes he should be honored as a great spiritual leader.

And you mentioned the Foreign Minister. The President, just within the recent weeks, had a good meeting with him, as well, here at the White House -- the Chinese Foreign Minister. And we believe that we'll get through this event tomorrow that the President is going to attend, and that we'll be able to continue and maintain to have really good relationships with China from here on out.

Q If I could just follow, you can judge by the number of questions here in this briefing that it is --

MS. PERINO: -- lot of hot air tonight.

Q -- the topic of the day. So why not release this picture today? It just seems like it's happening today --

MS. PERINO: I understand and I'll take it back up, if I can, but I believe that there will not be a photo today. You'll get one tomorrow.

Q Dana, you talked earlier about not releasing the picture as something you could do, in essence not to stir the pot. What about at tomorrow's ceremony? Will the President hand the medal and present the medal to the Dalai Lama? Will he -- is he keeping his remarks purposely short? What are other gestures --

MS. PERINO: I think his remarks are on par with the length of what he's given before -- I believe. They're always brief remarks because it's a long ceremony. And I don't know who -- I don't know what the protocol is for who provides the medal. It's the Congressional Gold Medal of Honor, so I don't know what the President's role is.

Q But is the White House thinking carefully about the symbolism of those gestures and --

MS. PERINO: We're aware of it, sure. It's on our collective radar screen. We understand that there are the concerns and -- that the Chinese have expressed. But we are going to go forward with the event tomorrow. We're not going to change that. But we will not release the photo today. But you all know that the meeting is happening anyway, and you'll have a picture of him with the Dalai Lama tomorrow.

Q Will you let us know by the end of today what the protocol will be tomorrow, and if the President will be presenting the medal?

MS. PERINO: Yes, sure.

Q And also, what is he likely to say in his remarks tomorrow?

MS. PERINO: Well, I think that he will honor the Dalai Lama as a great spiritual leader. And when I can provide you more -- those remarks are still being worked on, too, and unless they've been released in between the time that I was in my office and came down here, they're still not final.

Let me go back to April.

Q Dana, in the last couple of months this White House has said there has been an interesting relationship with China, especially after all the trade issues. And now you're saying it's a good relationship. How -- could you explain why you have a good relationship with China, as some would see this adding fuel to the fire of recent controversies with the United States and China?

MS. PERINO: Well, I just think we have -- it's a relationship where we have a lot of different issues that we work together on, including energy issues. China was here two weeks ago when the President hosted the major economies meeting, when we talked about how to curtail global warming through reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

The President told President Hu that he looks forward to attending the Olympics next year. We've also talked to China --the reason he met with Foreign Minister Wang was to talk to China about our concerns regarding Burma. We have an issue with the Product Import Safety Commission that Secretary Leavitt is looking into. We also have China as a great -- as a large trading partner, and we have many different issues going back and forth and we work cooperatively with them. Secretary Paulson has the Economic Strategic Initiative that he has implemented over at the Treasury Department.

And so it's a complex relationship that has many different facets. And we're working with them, as I mentioned before, on the North Korean six-party talks. They're very important to us, and to that -- and to the entire region in making sure that North Korea becomes a nuclear-free peninsula.

Q But "complex" still equates to a good relationship?

MS. PERINO: I think you can have a complex and a good relationship, like ours.

Helen.

Q It's not on the Dalai, but anyone else want to ask about --

MS. PERINO: Well, I'll come right back to you, Helen.

In the back.

Q Thanks, Dana. Is China interfering in our domestic politics by complaining so strongly about tomorrow's Congressional Gold Medal ceremony?

MS. PERINO: Look, I think that if people want to express their views, the President welcomes every -- everyone should have the opportunity to express their views. And I think that we're not going to try to squelch that at all, no.

Goyal.

Q Dana, thank you.

MS. PERINO: Is this one on the Dalai Lama?

Q Yes, ma'am. As far as this -- the Dalai Lama and particular issue is concerned, this has been going for a long time, and the people of Tibet have been waiting and asking President Bush every year whenever he was meeting with him in the White House that they see a hope of light for them. And now, over quarter million Tibetans in India are asking on President Bush again today that he should stand for the independence or freedom of Tibet just like anywhere else in the world.

MS. PERINO: As I said, the President –

Q And this will be the highest -- this will be the highest award ever the U.S. can give to -- civilian award to anybody, and they are very delighted and very thankful to the President. But, at the same time, they're asking for more.

MS. PERINO: Well, I understand that the President looks forward to the meeting he's having with him today, and then he'll make brief remarks tomorrow, and you can maybe get those out in your newspaper.