拜登總統接受《時代》雜誌採訪的完整記錄 TIME Magazine / Taimocracy翻譯 20240604
從記者的發言與拜登的回應，兩者關係並不十分友善。https://time.com/6984968/joe-biden-transcript-2024-interview/
拜登總統接受《時代》雜誌採訪的完整記錄 Read the Full Transcript of President Joe Biden’s Interview With TIME TIME Magazine / Taimocracy翻譯 20240604
Read our full cover story on President Joe Biden here. You can also read the full fact check here
President Joe Biden sat down for an interview with TIME at the White House on May 28. 5月28日，美國總統喬·拜登（Joe Biden）5月28日在白宮接受《時代》雜誌採訪。
Over the course of the interview, Biden spoke at length about his foreign policy agenda, including his views on China, Taiwan, Ukraine and Israel, as well as concerns about his age as he runs for re-election. 在採訪過程中，拜登詳細談到了他的外交政策議程，包括他對中國、臺灣、烏克蘭和以色列的看法，以及對他競選連任時年齡的關切。
Below is a lightly edited transcript of the interview conducted by TIME Washington Bureau Chief Massimo Calabresi and Editor-in-Chief Sam Jacobs. Click here to read our fact check. 以下是《時代》華盛頓分社社長Massimo Calabresi和主編Sam Jacobs的採訪記錄。這裡閱讀我們的事實核查。
Thank you for doing this, Mr. President. We appreciate your time. Busy moment. I'll dive right in. You're traveling next week to Normandy for the 80th anniversary of D-Day to commemorate a turning point in America's leadership with the free world. But the anniversary comes at a time when the US under your leadership has been unable to deter crises. First in Afghanistan, then Ukraine, Israel, and mounting tensions in the Far East. Is America still able to play the role of world power that it played in World War Two, and in the Cold War? 總統先生，謝謝你接受訪問。我們感謝您的寶貴時間。忙碌的時刻。我會立即開始。雖然今天是紀念的日子，但在您的領導下，美國卻未能遏制各種危機事件的發生。首先是阿富汗，然後是烏克蘭、以色列，以及遠東地區日益緊張的局勢。美國是否還能扮演其在第二次世界大戰和冷戰時期所扮演的世界強國角色？
Biden: Yes, we're planning even more. We are, we are the world power. And what I inherited, as a consequence of the mistake that we made in Afghanistan is a—was not a loss in Afghanistan, excuse my cold. But I think that look, I believe, I have a fundamentally different view than Mr. Trump has on a range of things. Number one: I really believe that we have a values-based as well as practical-based alliances around the world. And he, Trump, wanted to just abandon them. He says he's practical, one-on-one things he's doing. 是的，我們正在計劃更多。我們是，我們是世界強國。由於我們在阿富汗犯下的錯誤，我繼承的並不是阿富汗的損失，請原諒我的感冒。但我認為，我相信，我在一系列事情上的觀點與川普先生有著根本不同的觀點。第一：我確實相信我們在世界各地擁有基於價值觀和務實的聯盟。而他，川普，想放棄他們。他說他做的事情很實際，但在私下裡或一對一的情況下，他正在做的事情卻不太符合他表面上宣稱的做法。
Well, he didn't get much done. And so we end up in a situation where, when I came into, when I got sworn in, we were in a position where we didn't have—for example, there's a quote from Macron at the time saying that, in 2019, that Trump wants to eviscerate NATO. He thinks NATO is useless. And we have to rethink our entire relationship with the United States, they no longer lead the world. 他說自己很實際，但實際上沒有完成多少事情。所以當我就任的時候，我們所面臨的情況是，我們沒有 - 舉例來說，有一段引述是馬克宏在2019年說，川普想要摧毀北約。他（川普）認為北約已經沒用了。因此我們必須重新思考與美國的整個關係，因為他們不再領導世界了。
I have that exact quote here. And they no longer lead the world and the transatlantic alliance has to be reexamined. And the interesting piece of that is you now have his former adviser John Bolton saying, he’s certain that the first thing Trump would do if he got reelected is get out of NATO completely. 我手上有那句完全相同的引述。他們已不再領導世界，跨大西洋同盟也必須重新審視。有趣的是，他的前顧問John Bolton現在說，他確信川普如果連任，要做的第一件事就是完全退出北約。
And so I've always believed that there are two elements to American security, and the biggest element and, and our normative example, is our alliances, our alliances. We are—we have, compared to the rest of the world, we have put together the strongest alliance in the history of the world, number one. Number two, we're in a situation where we are able to move in a way that recognizes how much the world has changed and still lead the world. And it's our security. For example, the idea that if when Putin decided to go into Russia—I mean, he's gonna go from Russia into Ukraine—the reason why I cleared the intelligence so we can release the information we knew that he was going to attack, was to let the world know we were still in charge. We still know what's going on. 所以我一直相信美國的安全有兩個要素，最大的要素和我們的規範例子是我們的聯盟，我們的聯盟。與世界其他國家相比，我們組建了世界歷史上最強大的聯盟，這是第一點。第二，我們現在處於一個能夠在既認識到世界的巨大變化，又能夠繼續領導世界的行動方式下。而這也是我們的安全保障。例如，當普京決定進入俄羅斯 ── 我是說他要從俄羅斯進入烏克蘭 ── 我清理情報並公開我們掌握的資訊，是為了讓世界知道我們仍在掌控之中，我們仍然了解事態的發展。
This, by the way is, if you haven't read it, you should. [Pulls out copy of speech Putin delivered on Feb. 21, 2022] It's the address to the Russian people on the Donbass problem on February 21, when Moscow was going in. And it lays out why I believe Trump—what he never understood—which is that Russia, he wasn’t just going into Moscow, I mean from Russia into Ukraine, for purposes of keeping them from having weapons, etc. He believes it is an essential part of Russia, from the beginning. 順便說一句，如果你還沒讀過，你應該讀一下。[拿出普丁在 2022 年 2 月 21 日發表的演講副本] 這是2 月21 日莫斯科即將介入時，就頓巴斯問題向俄羅斯人民發表的講話。這說明了我為什麼認為川普從未理解的事情 - 那就是俄羅斯並非單純進入莫斯科，而是從俄羅斯進入烏克蘭，其目的並非阻止烏克蘭擁有武器等。普丁從一開始就認為烏克蘭是俄羅斯不可或缺的一部分。
He has just laid out, straight out. He said, he said, ‘I would like to emphasize again, Ukraine is not a neighboring country of us. It is an inalienable part of our own history, culture and spiritual space…Since time immemorial, the people living in the south-west of what has historically been Russia, Russian land have called themselves Russians and Orthodox Christians.’ And he goes on. He makes this whole speech about why it is part of reestablishing the Soviet Union. 他剛剛擺好姿勢，直接出去。他說，他說，『我想再次強調，烏克蘭不是我們的鄰國。它是我們自己的歷史、文化和精神空間不可分割的一部分……自古以來，生活在歷史上俄羅斯西南部、俄羅斯土地上的人們都稱自己為俄羅斯人和東正教徒。他繼續說下去。他的整個演講都是關於為什麼這是重建蘇聯的一部分。
So understanding Putin's aims, the world, the West, the United States, and you find yourselves facing a difficult situation in Ukraine. The war is stalled every day, an average of 42 Ukrainian civilians are killed or wounded. Is Russia's proposal for, to end the war in Ukraine, the best that Ukraine can hope for at this point? 因此，了解普丁的目標、世界、西方、美國，你會發現自己在烏克蘭面臨困難的局面。戰爭每天陷入僵局，平均42名烏克蘭平民傷亡。俄羅斯提出的結束烏克蘭戰爭的建議是否是烏克蘭目前所能期望的最佳方案？
Biden: No, it's not. And by the way, I don't know why you skip over all that’s happened in the meantime. The Russian military has been decimated. You don’t write about that. It’s been freaking decimated. Number one. 不，不是。順便說一句，你跳過了這段時間內發生的所有事情。俄羅斯軍隊已經遭到重創。你沒有提及這一點。他們的軍隊確實已經遭到嚴重打擊。這是第一點。
Number two, NATO is considerably stronger than it was when I took office. I put it together. Not only did I reestablish the fact that it was the strongest alliance in the history of the world, I was able to expand it. While I was in one of the G7 meetings in Europe. when I got back I called on the President of Finland because when I had met earlier in the year with Putin, he said he wanted to see the Finlandization of NATO. I told him, he's gonna get not the Finlandization, the Natoization of Finland. And everybody thought, including you guys, thought I was crazy. 第二點，北約比我上任時強大得多。我把它團結在一起。我不僅重新確立了它是世界歷史上最強大聯盟的事實，而且還能夠擴大它。當我參加歐洲七國集團會議之一。當我回來後，我拜訪了芬蘭總統，因為當年稍早我與普丁會面時，他說他希望看到北約的芬蘭化。我告訴他，他不會實現芬蘭化，而是芬蘭北約化。每個人，包括你們，都認為我瘋了。
And guess what? I did it. I did it. And we're now the strongest nation. We have the strongest alliance in all of America, all of history. In the meantime, what we keep skipping over is what the consequence of the success of Russia in Ukraine would be. That's why I brought this along. You probably haven't read it. Most people haven't read it. He says this is part of reestablishing the Soviet Union. That's what this is all about. It wasn't just about taking part of—He wanted, he wanted to go back to the, to the days when there was NATO and there was that other outfit that Poland, everybody belonged to. So that’s what it was about. And in the meantime, what happened was, we were able to—and by the way, we spent a lot of money in Ukraine, but Europe has spent more money than the United States has, collectively. Europe has spent more money than the United States has, collectively Europe has spent more money in taking on Russia. 你猜怎麼著？我做到了。我做到了。我們現在是最強大的國家。我們擁有全美國、史上最強大的聯盟。同時，我們一直忽略的是俄羅斯在烏克蘭的成功會帶來什麼後果。這就是我帶來這個的原因。你可能還沒讀過。大多數人都沒有讀過。他說這是為了重建蘇聯的一部分。這才是整個事件的本質。這不僅僅是佔領一部分領土 - 他想要重回那個時代，當時有北約和另一個波蘭等國都屬於的集團。這就是他的本意。與此同時發生的是，我們能夠 — 順帶一提，我們在烏克蘭花了大筆資金，但實際上，歐洲國家集體出資比美國更多。歐洲國家集體花費的資金，比美國更多，用來對抗俄羅斯。
So what is the endgame though in Ukraine and what does peace look like there? 那麼烏克蘭的結局會是什麼？
Biden: Peace looks like making sure Russia never, never, never, never occupies Ukraine. That's what peace looks like. And it doesn't mean NATO, they are part of NATO. It means we have a relationship with them like we do with other countries, where we supply weapons so they can defend themselves in the future. But it is not, if you notice, I was the one when—and you guys did report it at TIME—the one that I was saying that I am not prepared to support the NATOization of Ukraine. 和平大致上是確保俄羅斯永遠、永遠、永遠、永遠不會佔領烏克蘭。這就是和平的樣子。這並不意味著北約，他們是北約的一部分。這意味著我們與他們的關係就像我們與其他國家的關係一樣，我們向這些國家提供武器，以便他們將來能夠自衛。但如果你注意到的話，我並不是那個在《時代》雜誌上說過我不準備支持烏克蘭北約化的人——你們確實在《時代》雜誌上報道了這一點。
It should not, it is not—I spent a month in Ukraine when I was a Senator and Vice President. There was significant corruption. There was a circumstance that was really difficult. And so, the point is, though, that if we ever let Ukraine go down, mark my words: you'll see Poland go, and you'll see all those nations along the actual border of Russia, from the Balkans and Belarus, all those, they're going to make their own accommodations. 不應該，不是——當我擔任參議員和副總統時，我在烏克蘭待了一個月。當時貪腐現象嚴重。那個情況確實很困難。所以，重點是，請記住我的話：如果我們讓烏克蘭垮台，你會看到波蘭消失，你會看到所有沿著俄羅斯實際邊界的國家，從巴爾幹半島和白俄羅斯，所有這些，他們都會找到自己的歸宿。
I want to switch to Israel. But on that last point, is there a danger that NATO is on a slippery slope to war with Ukraine—with Russia, as things stand? 話題想轉到以色列。但就最後一點而言，北約是否有可能正滑向與俄羅斯開戰的危險？
Biden: No, we're on a slippery slope for war if we don't do something about Ukraine. It’s just not gonna…anyway… 不，假使不做點什麼來幫助烏克蘭的話，我們就會滑向戰爭。不過，無論如何...
So in Israel, obviously, a difficult time there. What steps are you prepared to take against Israel now that Netanyahu appears to have crossed your red line in Rafah, Mr. President? 因此，在以色列，顯然正經歷著一段艱難的時期。總統先生，鑑於納坦亞胡似乎已經越過了你設下的拉法的紅線，您準備對以色列採取哪些措施？
Biden: I'm not going to speak to that now because you're going to report this before I make, before—I'm in the process of talking with the Israelis right now. So I'm not going to… 我現在不打算談論這個，因為你要在我之前報告這一點，之前——我現在正在與以色列人交談。所以我不會表態…
What does that mean? 這是什麼意思？
Biden: If I tell you, you’ll write it. It’s not time for you to write it. 如果我告訴你，你就會寫。現在還不是你可以寫的時候。
What are the nature of your conversations with the Israelis right now? Have you spoken with Bibi? 您現在與以色列人的對話的性質是什麼？你和比比談過嗎？
Biden: I have not spoken with Bibi since—I have not spoken with Bibi since the attack on Sunday. Was it Sunday? 自從週日攻擊事件發生以來，我沒有和比比說過話。是星期天嗎？
Ben LaBolt: Yep. Sunday. 是的。星期日。
Biden: I have not. My team has. 我沒有。我的團隊有。
But has he crossed your red line? 但他有沒有越過你的紅線呢？
Biden: I'm not going to respond to that because I'm about to make a…anyway. 我不會對此做出回應，因為我即將做出……無論如何。
More broadly, from the intelligence in the evidence you've seen, either currently or in the last months, have Israeli forces committed war crimes in Gaza? 更廣泛地說，從你所看到的證據中的情報來看，無論是當前還是過去幾個月，以色列軍隊是否在加薩犯下了戰爭罪行？
Biden: The answer is it's uncertain and has been investigated by the Israelis themselves. The ICC is something that we don’t, we don't recognize. But one thing is certain, the people in Gaza, the Palestinians have suffered greatly, for lack of food, water, medicine, etc. And a lot of innocent people have been killed. But it is—and a lot of it has to do not just with Israelis, but what Hamas is doing in Israel as we speak. Hamas is intimidating that population. I went over right after that attack on the Israelis. What they did was—exceeded anything I've ever seen. And I've seen a lot. Tying mothers and daughters together with rope and pouring kerosene on it and burning them to death. That kind of thing, attempting to intimidate. And it is dastardly. 答案是不確定，以色列人自己也調查過。國際刑事法院是我們不承認的機構。但有一點是肯定的，在加薩的巴勒斯坦人民、遭受了巨大的苦難，缺乏食物、水、藥品等，還有大量無辜民眾被殺害。但事實確實如此，其中許多不僅與以色列人有關，也與我們說話時哈馬斯在以色列所做的事情有關。哈馬斯正在恐嚇這些人民。對以色列人的攻擊發生後我就過去了。他們所做的事——超出了我所見過的任何事情。而且我見過很多。用繩子把母女綁在一起，淋上煤油燒死。諸如這樣的事，試圖恐嚇。這是卑鄙的。
On what Hamas has done, are the eight US hostages there in Gaza is still alive? 回到哈馬斯的所作所為，加薩的八那名人質還活著嗎？
Biden: We believe there are those that are still alive. I met with all the families. But we don't have final proof on exactly who's alive and who's not alive. And by the way, I’ve been calling for—we should have a ceasefire, period. And to get those hostages. That’s the main reason why we push. Both the Israelis desperately want a ceasefire in order to get the hostages home. And it's a way to begin to break the momentum. And so that's why we're pushing hard for the—and we’re—Is our intelligence chief in? Where is he now? 我們相信還有人還活著。我會見了所有的家庭。但我們沒有最終證據證明誰還活著，誰已經死了。順便說一句，我一直呼籲——我們應該停火，就這樣。並救回那些人質。這就是我們推動的主要原因。以色列人都迫切希望停火，好讓人質回家。這是開始打破慣性的一種方式。這就是為什麼我們正在努力推動——我們的情報主管在嗎？他現在在哪裡？
Kirby: He is back, sir. He was just over in Europe, in Brussels, over the weekend. 他回來了，先生。他剛剛在歐洲布魯塞爾過週末。
And whose fault is it that the that deal, the ceasefire for hostages has not been consummated? Is it Hamas or Israel or both? 人質停火協議未能達成，又是誰的錯呢？是哈馬斯還是以色列，還是兩者兼具？
Biden: Hamas. Hamas could end this tomorrow. Hamas could say (unintelligible) and done period. And, but, and the last offer Israel made was very generous in terms of who they'd be willing to release, what they'd give in return, et cetera. Bibi is under enormous pressure on the hostages, on the hostages, and so he's prepared to do about anything to get the hostages back. 哈馬斯。哈馬斯明天可能會結束這一切。哈馬斯可以說（難以理解）並且立即停火。而且，但是，以色列最後提出的條件非常慷慨，他們願意釋放誰，他們會給予什麼回報等等。比比對人質承受著巨大的壓力，所以他準備不惜一切代價把人質救回來。
You mentioned the hunger in Gaza. Some have alleged that Israel is intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare. Do you think that's the case? 你提到了加薩的飢餓問題。有些人聲稱以色列故意利用讓平民挨餓作為戰爭手段。你認為是這樣嗎？
Biden: No, I don't think that. I think they've engaged in activity that is inappropriate. That is…When I went over immediately after the—Hamas’ brutal attack, I said then, and it became public, I said, don't make the same mistake we did going after bin Laden. Don't try—The idea of occupying Afghanistan, the idea that you had nuclear arsenals in Iran, that were being, I mean, in Iraq, that were being generated, simply not true. And it led to endless wars. They were not true. Don't make the mistakes we made. And they're making that mistake, I think. Excuse my voice, I apologize. 不，我不這麼認為。我認為他們參與了不恰當的活動。也就是說...當我在哈馬斯發動殘暴攻擊後立即前往訪問時，我當時公開表示，不要重蹈我們追捕賓拉登時犯下的錯誤。不要企圖佔領阿富汗，也不要相信伊朗或伊拉克正在研發核武器這種說法，這完全是虛假的。這些錯誤導致了無休止的戰爭。它們都是不真實的。不要重複我們犯過的錯誤。但他們正在重蹈那些錯誤，我想是這樣的。請原諒我的聲音。正在犯下這個錯誤。請原諒我的聲音，我道歉。
Not at all. Some in Israel have suggested that Netanyahu is prolonging the war for his own political self-preservation. Do you believe that? 別介意。以色列一些人認為納坦亞胡為了政治上的自保而延長戰爭。你相信嗎？
Biden: I'm not going to comment on that. There is every reason for people to draw that conclusion. And I would cite tha as—before the war began, the blowback he was getting from the Israeli military for wanting to change the constitu—change the court. And so it's an internal domestic debate that seems to have no consequence. And whether he would change his position or not, it's hard to say, but it has not been helpful. 我不會對此做評論。人們有充分的理由得出這個結論。我想引用這一點——在戰爭開始之前，他因想要改變法院而受到以色列軍方的反擊。因此，這是一場似乎沒有任何結果的內部辯論。至於他是否會改變立場，很難說，但這並沒有什麼幫助。
Trump has said that Netanyahu is rightfully criticized for Oct. 7. Do you believe that he bears some responsibility for the fact that Oct. 7th happened? 川普表示，納坦亞胡因10月7日事件受到批評是正確的。
Biden: I don't know how any one person has that responsibility. He was the leader of the country, so therefore, it happened. But he wasn't the only one that didn't pick it up. He wasn’t the only one that didn’t pick it up. That's why there's got to be—my major disagreement with Netanyahu is, what happens after, what happens after Gaza’s over? What, what does it go back to? Do Israeli forces go back in? I've been talking to the Egyptians and been talking to the Saudis. I’ve been talking to the Jordanians, I've been talking to the Emiratis. The answer is, if that's the case, it can't work. 我不知道怎麼會有人承擔這項責任。他是國家的領導人，然後，這件事發生了。但他並不是唯一一個沒有接受的人。他並不是唯一一個沒有接起來的人。這就是為什麼我與納坦亞胡的主要分歧是，加薩結束之後會發生什麼？它又回到了什麼？以色列軍隊會重返嗎？我一直在與埃及人和沙烏地阿拉伯人交談。我一直在與約旦人交談，我一直在與阿聯人交談。答案是，如果是這樣的話，那就不行了。
There needs to be a two-state solution, a transition to a two-state solution. And that's my biggest disagreement with Bibi Netanyahu. 需要有一個邁向「兩國解決方案」的過渡。這是我與納坦亞胡最大的分歧。
Do you have agreement from all the other parties to this multi-part package of deals that would deliver that in Israel, in the region, other than Bibi? Is Bibi the only thing standing in the way of that? 除了 Bibi 之外，所有其他各方是否都同意這項由多部分組成的交易，這些交易將在以色列、該地區實現這一目標？比比是唯一阻礙這一切的因素嗎？
Biden: I gotta be careful, because you're gonna print this before the article comes out and I'm in the process of negotiating a lot of that. The answer is that I think there is a clear path for a transition where the Arab states would provide security and reconstruction in Gaza in return for a longer-term commitment to a transition to a two-state solution. And that extends all the way from Saudi Arabia, who I continue to talk to—my team—to the Jordanians that are trying to work bringing in goods and certain goods now, food, medicine, etc. And the Egyptians who I've been talking with frequently about what happens in terms of access for more material to get into Gaza to prevent this catastrophe from continuing. 我必須小心，你可能會在相關文章發布之前就先將這些話印出來，而我正在就很多事情進行談判。答案是，我認為有一條明確的過渡路徑，阿拉伯國家將為加薩提供安全和重建，以換取對兩國解決方案過渡的長期承諾。這從我繼續與我的團隊交談的沙烏地阿拉伯一直延伸到正在努力進口貨物和某些貨物、食品、藥品等的約旦人。以防止這場災難持續下去。
Mr. President, you mentioned at the beginning value-based alliances, and you mentioned the Saudis. Do you believe we share the same values? 總統先生，您一開始就提到了基於價值的聯盟，您也提到了沙烏地阿拉伯。你相信我們有相同的價值觀嗎？
Biden: Remember, I said what the other one was: there are values-based and there are practical-based. And it's overwhelmingly in our interest. For example, you may recall a resolution I introduced at the G20 that no one thought would go anywhere and it passed by providing for a railroad and oil line, uh, oil, excuse me, I misspoke. Railroad lines and transportation, all the way from Riyadh—to Saudi Arabia, to Jordan, to Israel, all through Europe and continuing. And the reason for that is that the economy can be used to bring people together as well. The fact of the matter is the world's changing. We are at a significant inflection point. 請別忘了，我說的是另一個：有基於價值觀的，也有基於實踐的。這絕對符合我們的利益。舉個例子，你可能還記得我在G20上提出的一項決議，沒有人認為會有任何進展，結果通過了提供一條鐵路和石油線，呃，石油，對不起，我說錯了。鐵路線和運輸，從利雅德一直到沙烏地阿拉伯、約旦、以色列，穿越整個歐洲並持續不斷。（即，「印度中東歐洲油氣走廊」IMEC）原因是經濟也可以用來將人們聚集在一起。事實是世界正在改變。我們正處於一個重要的轉折點。
The Saudis are aware that oil is not going to be their ticket to the future 10 years from now. They know it. They know what's happening. The same way with the rest of these countries. So if you have mutual economic interests in mind, you’re less likely to have conflict. So that's what—and it passed, by the way, that resolution. 沙烏地人意識到石油不會成為他們十年後通往未來的門票。他們知道。他們知道發生了什麼事。其他這些國家也是如此。因此，如果你們考慮到共同的經濟利益，那麼發生衝突的可能性就較小。事情就是這樣——順便說一句，這項決議也獲得了通過。
We have a lot of the world to cover. Elsewhere in the region in Iran, but also in the Far East, there are troubling national security developments, long-standing problems that appear to be getting worse, Iran is expanding its stockpile of enriched, highly enriched uranium. North Korea has reportedly restarted its nuclear program and is testing missiles capable of reaching the mainland US, some even as far as New York potentially. Is it effectively American policy now to live with a nuclear or near-nuclear Iran and North Korea? 我們有很多世界要探索。在伊朗地區的其他地方，還有遠東地區，國家安全的發展令人不安，長期存在的問題似乎變得越來越嚴重，伊朗正在擴大其濃縮、高濃縮鈾的庫存。據報道，北韓已重啟其核子計劃，並正在測試能夠到達美國本土的飛彈，有些甚至可能遠至紐約。美國現在的政策實際上是與擁有核武或近核的伊朗和北韓共存嗎？
Biden: No, it's not. And by the way, that's been going on for some time. You could have sat here five years ago and said the same thing with regard to North Korea. So… 不，不會。順便說一句，這種情況已經持續了一段時間了。五年前你本來可能坐在這裡說同樣的話（有關北韓）。所以…
But that situation is getting more threatening, don't you think, Mr. President? 但這種情況正變得越來越危險，你不覺得嗎，總統先生？
Biden: No, I don't. I think it's equally as threatening as it was before. I don't think it's more threatening and North Korea has something else that it has to deal with. I did something that you would have been too cynical to think I could possibly do. I put together an Indo-Pacific strategy that is incredibly broad. 不，我不這麼認為。我認為它和以前一樣具有威脅性。我不認為這更具威脅性，北韓還有其他事情需要處理。我做了一件你可能會覺得我不可能做到的事情。我制訂了一項極為廣泛的印太戰略。
Did you ever think if I told you that Japan would be devoting 3% of its GDP to defense and make a rapprochement at Camp David with South Korea as an overwhelming threat that exists to North Korea as well as to Europe? You know, I've been able to put 50 nations together to help in Ukraine, led by us but also engaged with, with Japan's leadership. 你是否想過，如果我告訴你，日本將把國內生產總值的 3% 用於國防，並在大衛營與韓國和解，是在回應北韓以及歐洲等重大威脅？你知道，我已經能夠將 50 個國家聚集在一起為烏克蘭提供幫助，這些國家由我們領導，同時也與日本的領導層合作。
So there is—look as long as there are nuclear weapons available, it's always going to be a problem. It's gonna—the question is how do we stop it? That's why I thought Trump was wrong in not wanting to work early on five years ago, and three years ago, when he left office—with trying to control, work out an arrangement to control access to North Korea, to nuclear weapons and/or nuclear weapons that are available to any other area. And that's why I was able to put together four or five major initiatives in Europe. I put together a quad that never existed before. I put together—I mean personally put together—worked on it, I put together AUKUS with Great Britain and Australia. I put together an agreement between Japan and the Philippines dealing with making sure that we know the international rules of the road pertaining in terms of air and water and territorial integrity. 所以，只要有核武存在，問題就永遠存在。它會——問題是我們要如何阻止它？這就是為什麼我認為川普在五年前和三年前卸任時，他不願意早點展開合作——試圖控制、制訂一個控制北韓核武器或其他地區可取得核武器的協議。這就是為什麼我能夠在歐洲提出四到五個主要倡議。我組建了一個以前從未存在過的四方聯盟。我個人親自組建了這個聯盟，努力投入其中，我與英國和澳大利亞共同建立了AUKUS。我還促成了日本和菲律賓之間的協議，確保我們了解關於空中、海上和領土完整相關的國際規則。
And so the point is we've invested billions of dollars. We are much stronger in the Pacific than we ever were before. China, by the way, China is very concerned about it. They asked me—I’ve spent more time with Xi Jinping than any leader in the world, over 90 hours alone with him since I've been Vice President. And we have a very candid relationship. 所以，關鍵是我們已經投資了數十億美元。我們在太平洋地區比以往任何時候都強大得多。中國，順便說一句，中國對此非常關切。他們問我──自從我擔任副總統以來，我與習近平相處的時間比世界上任何領導人都多，與他單獨相處的時間超過了90個小時。我們的關係非常坦誠不掩飾。
You know, I don't have any (unintelligible) He wanted to know why I was doing all these things. I said the simple reason I’m doing those things: to make sure that you don’t, that you aren’t able to change the status quo any. 你知道，我沒有任何（無法理解的部分）。他想知道我為什麼要做所有這些事情。我說我做這些事情的原因很簡單：確保你不能改變現狀。
So getting to exactly that point. Pretty much everybody agrees that managing China's rise is the most important foreign policy and national security issue for America and Americans in the coming century. CIA director Bill Burns says the President Xi Jinping of China has ordered the Chinese military to be ready by 2027 to conduct a successful invasion of Taiwan. You said on multiple occasions that you would use US forces to defend Taiwan. What does that mean? Is it boots on the ground? What, what shape would that take? 所以，講到了這一點。幾乎所有人都同意，應對中國的崛起是美國和美國人下個世紀最重要的外交政策和國家安全問題。中央情報局局長比爾·伯恩斯表示，中國國家主席習近平已命令中國軍隊在 2027 年之前做好準備以成功入侵台灣。您多次表示將動用美軍保衛台灣。這意味著什麼？是指實地部署嗎？那將採取什麼形式？
Biden: It would depend on the circumstances. You know, by the way, I've made clear to Xi Jinping that we agree with—we signed on to previous presidents going way back—to the policy of, that, it is we are not seeking independence for Taiwan nor will we in fact, not defend Taiwan if they if, if China unilaterally tries to change the status. And so we're continuing to supply capacity. And, and we've been in consultation with our allies in the region. 這要視具體情況而定。順便說一句，我已經向習近平明確表示——我們很久以前就與歷任主席簽署了協議——我們同意的政策是，我們並非尋求台灣獨立；如果中國試圖片面改變現狀，事實上，我們也不會不保護台灣。因此，我們持續協助提供能力。我們一直在與該地區的盟友進行磋商。
So if I might, not ruling out the possibility of deploying US troops to Taiwan in the case of an invasion? 如果我可以問的話，不排除在台灣遭受入侵的情況下向台灣部署美軍的可能性嗎？
Biden: Not ruling out using US military force. There’s a distinction between deploying on the ground, air power and naval power, etc. 不排除會使用美軍。部署地面部隊、空中部隊、海上部隊等是有一些區別的。
So you're maybe striking from bases in Philippines or Japan, is that… 所以你可能是從菲律賓或日本的基地發動攻擊，是嗎…
Biden: I can’t get into that. You would then criticize me with good reason if I were to tell you. 我不會談論這個部份。如果我告訴你，你就會有充分的理由批評我。
The competition in the Pacific Rim is broader than hard power and you've expanded Donald Trump's trade war with China. Mr. President, which you once criticized. 太平洋地區的競爭不僅僅局限於硬實力，總統先生，您擴大了川普與中國的貿易戰，這是您曾經批評過的。
Biden: No, I haven’t. Go ahead. 不，我沒有批評過。繼續說～
Most economists say tariffs raise prices. 大多數經濟學家表示，關稅會導致價格提高。
Biden: They do. 是的。
Cumulative inflation means that prices are up 18%, at least since you took office and wage increases have not kept pace. 累積通貨膨脹意味著物價上漲了18%，至少自您上任以來是這樣，而薪資上漲卻沒有跟上。
Biden: Since who took office? Since I took office? 從誰上任以來？從我上任以來嗎？
Yeah, cumulative inflation means prices are up nearly 20% since you took office and wage increases have not kept pace. 是的，累積通貨膨脹意味著自您上任以來物價上漲了近 20%，而薪資成長卻沒有跟上。
Biden: Wage increases have exceeded what the cost of inflation, which you're talking about as the prices that were pre-COVID prices. Pre-COVID prices are not the same as whether or not they—you have American, corporate America ripping off the public now. You have everything from shrinkflation to what's going on in terms of the way in which they're artificially moving significantly to increase their, their, their, their, their profits. That's not the same as inflation. That's price gouging. 薪資成長已經超過了通貨膨脹，你所說的通貨膨脹是新冠疫情之前的價格。COVID-19 前的價格與現在的價格並不相同，你看到美國企業現在在剝削公眾。你可以看到從縮水通脹到企業透過各種方式人為地大幅提升他們的利潤。這不是通脹，這是價格欺詐。你可以看到從通貨緊縮到他們人為地大幅增加利潤的一切。這與通貨膨脹不同。這是哄抬物價。
But Mr. President, won’t your newly announced tariffs raise the prices on American consumers? 但是總統先生，您新宣布的關稅不會提高美國消費者的價格嗎？
Biden: No, because here's the deal. There's a difference. I made it clear to Putin from the very beginning that—I'm not, we're not engaging in…For example, Trump wants a 10% tariff on everything. That will raise the price of everything in America. [Editor’s note: Biden appeared to mean Xi here, not Putin.] 不，因為事情就是這樣。有差別。我從一開始就向普丁（習近平）明確表示——我不會，我們不會實施……例如，川普希望對所有商品徵收 10% 的關稅。這將提高美國所有商品的價格。[編按：拜登在這裡似乎指的是習近平，而不是普丁。]
What I'm talking about, I said, we're gonna play by the same rules. You tell me if I want to, if an American corporation wants to invest in China, it has to give 50% ownership, 51% ownership to a Chinese operator. And that goes on from there. And I said, so you're gonna do that to us? (unintelligible) We’re going to do the same thing if you want to invest here. We're not putting a tariff on. We’re just saying, if you want to do that, well, we're gonna do that. And you cannot change the market in a way where you flood the market by—ignore all Chinese government subsidies to undercut their ability as to deal with electric vehicles. And we're not going to put up with it. That’s the thing we talked about. And that's what we're talking about. We're not talking about tariffs across the board. 我說的是，我們將遵循相同的規則。你告訴我如果我，如果一家美國公司想去中國投資的話，它必須給中國運營商50%的所有權，51%的所有權。從那裡才開始談投資的後續。我說，所以你真的要這樣嗎（難以理解）—如果中國企業想在美國投資，而我們也會做同樣的事情？我們不會徵收關稅。我們只是說，如果你想這麼做，那我們就會這麼做。你不能以大量供應商品的方式來改變市場——如果忽視了中國政府對本國企業的補貼，你還是無法削弱中國企業在電動車市場中的競爭力和處理能力。我們不會容忍它。這就是我們談論的事情。這就是我們正在談論的。我們不是在談論全面的關稅。
Okay, I'm gonna do a couple of rapid fire here. Another of your first acts as President under the banner of value-based leadership was to lift various punitive Trump-era immigration measures, Mr. President, that you and others said were inhumane. In retrospect, do you think those humanitarian moves helped drive record illegal border crossing? 好吧，我要在這裡進行幾次快速提問。總統先生，您作為總統在基於價值的領導旗幟下採取的第一個行動是取消川普時代的各種懲罰性移民措施，您和其他人認為這些措施是不人道的。回想起來，您認為這些人道行動是否有造成推動創紀錄的非法越境？
Biden: No. 不是
Were you wrong to lift any of those measures? 取消這些措施中的任何一項是錯誤的嗎？
Biden: If I was wrong, it’s because I took too long, 如果我錯了，那是因為我花了太長時間～
You've put some back in place. The Green Card issue, it's been reported that you're looking at reinstating Remain in Mexico. Are you looking at reinstating… 你已經恢復一些管制。關於綠卡問題，據報導您正在考慮恢復「留在墨西哥」政策。您是否正在考慮恢復...
Biden: No 不會
The last two years of Presidents, two-term President's tenure are usually focused on foreign affairs. You are 81 years old, and would be 86 by the time you left office. Large majorities of Americans, including in the Democratic Party, tell pollsters they think you are too old to lead. Could you really do this job as an 85-year old man? 歷任總統的連任總統最後兩年通常都集中在外交事務上。您今年 81 歲，卸任時將是 86 歲。包括民主黨在內的絕大多數美國人告訴民調機構，他們認為你太老了，無法領導。身為一個85歲的老人，你真的能勝任這份工作嗎？
Biden: I can do it better than anybody you know. You’re looking at me, I can take you too. 我比你認識的任何人都能做得更好。你看著我，我也可以超越你。
Did you consider not running again because of your age? 您是否考慮過因為年齡而不再競選？
Biden: No, I didn't. 不，我不會。
And what do you say to Americans who are worried about it? 對此感到擔憂的美國人，你有什麼想說的？
Biden: Watch me. Look, name me a president that’s gotten as much done as I've gotten done in my first three and a half years. When all of you wrote in Time magazine I couldn't get any of it done. When you told me there's no pay, no way, no way he can get a trillion-plus dollar bill done in terms of, to deal with infrastructure, where there's no way he gets $368 billion for dealing with the environment, where there's no way I could get the, the, the legislation passed on. 看著我。聽著，請舉例有哪一位總統，他所做的事情與我在前三年半中所做的事情一樣多。當你們所有人都在《時代》雜誌上撰稿說我什麼也做不成。當你們告訴我，沒有錢，不可能，沒辦法讓他完成一個超過一兆美元的基礎設施法案，沒辦法讓他得到3680億美元來處理環境問題，不可能讓我通過這些法案。
I remember when I was heading to Taiwan, excuse me, to South Korea, to reclaim the chips industry that we had gotten $865 billion in private-sector investment, private-sector investments since I’ve been in. Name me a president who’s done that. 我記得當我前往台灣時，對不起，去韓國，奪回晶片產業，自從我就任以來，我們已經獲得了 8650 億美元的私營部門投資。請舉例有哪一位總統做到這些成就。
You pledged at the beginning to restore unity. Both Trump and top Democrats, including some of your aides, say the greatest threat to America's national security is its—and its ability to lead the free world comes not from abroad, but from within, from US politics. Do you agree with that? 你們一開始就承諾恢復團結。川普和包括你的一些助手在內的民主黨高層都表示，對美國國家安全和其領導自由世界的能力構成最大威脅的不是來自國外，而是來自國內，來自美國的政治。你同意這個說法嗎？
Biden: I think it has a significantly diminishing impact on our ability to get things done internationally. Look, I tell you, I’ll just—let me give you one example. After I was elected, the first G7 I attended as President was in, in London—in England, along the beach down there. And I sat down with the seven leaders that were there. And I was sitting where you were, at this longer table. 我認為這說法明顯削弱我們在國際上完成任務的能力。我告訴你，我只是──讓我舉個例子給你聽。我當選後，我以總統身分參加的第一次七國集團會議是在英國倫敦的海灘。我和在場的七位領導人坐下來。我坐在你所在的地方，這張較長的桌子。
I said, “Well, America's back.” Macron looked at me and he said, “For how long? For how long?” And then Schultz said to me, “What would you say Mr. President, if tomorrow you pick up The London Times and found out that thousands of people stormed the British Parliament, broke down the doors, killed two Bobbies to prevent the implement—the swearing in of a, of a prime minister, a choice of prime minister?” 我說：「好，美國回來了。」馬克宏看著我說：「多久？多長時間？」然後蕭茲對我說：「總統先生，如果明天你拿起《倫敦時報》，發現數千人衝進英國議會，破門而入，殺死了兩個警衛，以阻止政策實施——你會怎麼說？」
And it made me realize just how fundamentally what he allowed to happen sitting in this room, looking at that television for three hours and didn't do a damn thing, said about America, and how much confidence people lost in America. There's not a, there’s not a…I’m gonna, say, be careful what I say…There's not a major international meeting I attend that before it’s over—and I've attended many, more than most presidents have in three and a half years—that a world leader doesn’t pull me aside as I’m leaving and say, “He can’t win. You can’t let him win.” 這讓我意識到，他坐在這個房間裡，光看電視三個小時卻沒有做任何事，反而談論美國，以及人們對美國失去了多少信心，這是多麼根本的事情。沒有一次，沒有一次……我得說，請注意我的話……在我參加的許多國際會議中，在結束前，沒有一次世界領袖不會拉著我一邊說：「他不能贏。你不能讓他贏。」
My democracy and their democracy is at stake. My democracy is at stake. And so name me a world leader other than Orban and Putin who think that Trump should be the world leader in the United States of America. 我的民主和他們的民主都受到威脅。我的民主受到威脅。因此，個除了匈牙利總理歐爾班和普丁之外，請舉例一位世界領導人，他們認為川普應該成為美利堅合眾國的世界領導人。
LaBolt: We’ll have to leave it there. 讓我們換個話題。
Let me ask you one on the…if you do win in November, Mr. President, with a mandate to continue your approach to foreign policy, what would your goals be in the second term? 讓我問你一個問題…總統先生，如果你確實在 11 月獲勝，並受命繼續執行你的外交政策，你在第二個任期的目標是什麼？
Biden: To finish what I started in the first term. To continue to make sure that the European continent—I'll tell you, I got a call from Kissinger about 10 days before he died. And he used the following comment. He said that not since Napoleon has Europe not looked over their shoulder at dread with what Europe—what Russia may do, until now. Until now, you can't let that change. 完成我在第一任期開始的事。為了繼續確保歐洲大陸——我告訴你，在季辛吉去世前大約10天我接到了他的電話。他做以下評論。他說，他說，自拿破崙以來至今，歐洲從未像現在這樣恐懼並警惕俄羅斯可能會做什麼，你不能讓這種情況改變。
The point is that we have an opportunity to have the decisions we make in the last couple of years, in the next four years, are going to determine the future of Europe for a long time to come. And so that's why we can not let NATO fail, we have to build that both politically and economically. And militarily, which we're investing significantly. In addition to that, I am desperately focused on making sure that we deal with the…what they are calling the south now. There are going to be a billion people in Africa in the next several years. We have to, we have to be a catalyst for change for the benefit, for the, for the better, we have to help them build back better, we have to help them. 關鍵是，我們有機會在過去幾年和未來四年中做出的決策，將決定歐洲很長一段時間的未來。這就是為什麼我們不能讓北約失敗，我們必須以政治和經濟來建立。在軍事上，我們正在大力投資。除此之外，我還非常專注於確保我們處理……大家現在所說的「南方」。未來幾年，非洲人口將達到十億。我們必須，我們必須成為改變的催化劑，為了利益，為了更好，為了更好，我們必須幫助他們重建得更好，我們必須幫助他們。
We, on the climate side, have come along and we've done everything that is reasonably—and three other countries are the reason we’re in the problem we’re in. But what happens if all of a sudden, on the Amazon, they're starting to clear, vast swaths of land, cut down forests, etc. Back when Dick Lugar was alive, he and I started something back in the 90s, where we said—late 80’s, excuse me—where we said to, in the Amazon, they said, look, if you, we’ll make a deal with you Brazil. You don't cut your forest, we'll pay you not to do it. We’ll pay you not to do it, We have to prevent—And that's why we're working so hard to make sure Angola can be in a position that they have more solar capacity than almost any place in the world, to help that whole continent. 我們在氣候方面做了很多努力，我們已經盡了一切合理的努力——而有三個國家是我們陷入這個問題的原因。但是，如果突然之間，亞馬遜地區開始大規模地清理土地，砍伐森林等等，會發生什麼呢？在迪克·盧加（Dick Lugar）還在世的時候，他和我在90年代——對不起，是80年代末——開始了一些事情，我們對亞馬遜地區說：如果你們，我們會與你們巴西達成協議。假使你們不砍伐森林，我們就會支付你們不砍伐的費用。我們會支付你們不砍伐的費用。我們必須防止這種情況發生——這就是為什麼我們努力確保安哥拉能夠擁有比世界上幾乎任何地方都更多的太陽能容量，以幫助整個大陸。
That's why we want to build a railroad all the way—with others in Europe—all the way across the continent. So that you have, you have countries that have overproduction of agriculture and some that don’t have it, but no way to get a transfer. There's so much opportunity in Africa. And we have to work it. 這就是為什麼我們希望與歐洲其他國家一起建造一條橫跨整個非洲大陸的鐵路。因此，有些國家農業生產過剩，有些國家沒有農業生產，但沒有辦法獲得轉移。非洲有很多機會。我們必須努力做到這一點。
In addition to that, we have to deal with the Indo-Pacific. I've had 15 island presidents and leaders here twice now. They know if they—if we don't do something about global warming, a couple of them are going to be underwater. I mean, literally underwater, not to—So we're putting together coalitions of people that have a similar interest. And it makes it difficult. You know, you're talking, everybody talks about how, how strong China is and how powerful they are. Name me—Would you trade places with Xi Jinping and any other country? Not a joke? I'm being deadly earnest, a rhetorical question. But would you? You’ve got a population that’s considerably older than the vast majority of the youth in Europe, that is too old to work. And they are xenophobic. Where is it coming from? Where is it going to grow? You’ve got an economy that's on the brink there. The idea that their economy is booming? Give me a break. 除此之外，我們還必須應付印太地區。我已經兩次接待過 15 位島國總統和領導人了。他們知道，如果我們不採取措施應對全球暖化，他們中的一些人就會被淹沒。我的意思是，真正淹沒在水下，而不是——所以我們正在把有共同利益的人組成聯盟。你知道，你在談論，每個人都在談論中國如何、有多強大以及他們多有影響力，讓事情變得困難。告訴我——你願意與習近平和其他國家交換位置嗎？不是開玩笑嗎？我是非常認真的，這是一個反問句。但你願意嗎？你擁有一個明顯比歐洲大多數年輕人老得多的人口數，且已經是老到不能工作的群體。他們還很排外。這種情況是怎麼來的？它會如何發展？那裡的經濟正岌岌可危。說他們的經濟正在蓬勃發展？拜託一點喔～
I do have one last on China, which is are they meddling in the election? Have you seen evidence that they're meddling with AI or in other ways in the US election? 我還有關於中國的最後一個問題，那就是他們是否干預選舉？您是否看到他們在美國大選中以其他方式干預人工智慧或其他方式的證據？
Biden: There, there, there, there is evidence that meddling is going on. I'm not going to get into, I don't think I should from an intelligence standpoint, there… 有證據顯示正在進行干預。我不會介入，從情報的角度來看，我認為我不應該介入，那裡…
It sounds as if they are. 聽起來好像是的。
Biden: I think China would have an interest—let me put it like this—would have an interest in meddling. Everybody, all the bad guys are rooting for Trump, man. Not a joke. Think about it. Think about it. I mean, that line that Macron used, and it says that…I was making notes for this. It said, Macron, they know the experience of brain death unlike anytime. Because lack of US leadership, we should reassess the reality of NATO in light of the lack of US leadership. 我認為中國會有興趣——讓我這樣說——有興趣干預。每個人，所有的壞人都在支持川普，老兄。不是開玩笑。想一想。想一想。我的意思是，馬克宏使用的那句話，它是這麼說的……我當時在做筆記。上面說，馬克宏曾經說過，他們體驗到了前所未有的「腦死」。我們應該針對缺乏美國領導的想定，重新評估北約的現實。
You know, we talked about what they're looking at in terms of Asia. One thing that I was able to convince the Japanese of, is we're not walking away from Japan. Because Japan, collected with us, is a source of great economic strength and stability, physical stability for both of us. You're not going to have, I mean, the idea that China wants to screw with everybody is a different place. By the way, the cost of China to build their military is multi-billions of dollars. 你知道，我們討論了他們對亞洲的看法。我能夠說服日本人的一件事是，我們不會拋棄日本。因為日本與我們一起，是我們兩國強大的經濟實力和穩定、物質穩定的來源。我的意思是，中國想要與所有人對抗的這種想法是困難不切實際的。順便說一下，中國建設軍隊的成本是數十億美元。
And guess what they're, you know, they're, they’re…what they call it? Going around the world? The Belt and Road initiative? It's become a nuisance graveyard initiative. I'm serious. Think about it. I've been saying this for three years, and you guys write, “No, China’s on the right—China’s gonna break through.” Where are they, where are they breaking through? And look what's happening in Africa. 猜猜他們是什麼，你知道，他們是，他們是……他們叫什麼？制霸全球？一帶一路倡議？這已經成為一項令人討厭的自掘墳墓計劃。我是認真的。想一想吧。我已經這樣說了三年了，你們寫道：「不，中國在正確方向上——中國將會突破。」中國在哪裡，他們在哪裡有所突破？看看非洲正在發生什麼事。
Well, I could I could go on with that question for a long time, Mr. President, thank you very much I've taken— 好吧，我可以繼續這個問題很長時間，總統先生，非常感謝你，接受訪問——
Biden: After this is all over, I'm happy to talk with you. For real. 等這一切結束後，我真的很高興再與你交談。
你可能也想看
